Listen to the segment from 17 April 2024, featuring Daniel O'Sullivan from Abbe.
Listen to our segment with Catherine Sayer, FBA CEO here: https://familybusinessassociation.org/article/hear-from-catherine-sayer-on-3aw-australia-overnight-with-tony-mcmanus
Listen to our segment with Michael Stillwell from Stillwell Group and special guest, David Mann here: https://familybusinessassociation.org/article/hear-from-michael-stillwell-from-stillwell-group--and-special-guest-david-mann-on-3aw-australia-overnight-with-tony-mcmanus
Listen to our segment with Emily Hammon from Scenic World here: https://familybusinessassociation.org/article/hear-from-emily-hammon-from-scenic-world-on-3aw-australia-overnight-with-tony-mcmanus
Listen to our segment with Ray Borda from Macro Group Australia here: https://familybusinessassociation.org/article/hear-from-ray-borda-from-macro-group-australia-on-3aw-australia-overnight-with-tony-mcmanus
Listen to our segment with Grant Menzies from Adina Watches here: https://familybusinessassociation.org/article/hear-from-grant-menzies-from-adina-watches-on-3aw-australia-overnight-with-tony-mcmanus
View the transcript here:
Tony McManus
It is great family business we talk about every couple of weeks. Family Business Association, formerly Family business Australia, change of name because it now includes some of the great family businesses from New Zealand.
In the studio, I'm happy to say, is Daniel O'Sullivan. Now, Dan is, can I call you, Dan?
Daniel O'Sullivan
Daniel.
Tony McManus
Daniel, OK. Sorry Daniel. Daniel, because I have a brother Dan, so forgive me.
Daniel is Sales and Marketing Director of Abbe. Now, for those that may not necessarily be familiar with that brand, Abbe is a leading Australian independent manufacturer, supplier of corrugated carton board packaging, retail displays, specialty industrial packaging, world class automation solutions just for a start. They've been doing it a long time. Daniel O'Sullivan, good morning and welcome to Australia Overnight.
Daniel O'Sullivan
Good morning, Tony.
Tony McManus
And thank you for coming into the studio. It's wonderful to have you here and we've just been talking for the last 10 minutes and I was reminded about, as you are, how important family businesses generally are to the culture, the economy of Australia.
Daniel O'Sullivan
Absolutely. When family business really underpins the economy of Australia, it's that middle tier of the market that works so hard to produce goods and services for the rest of the population.
Tony McManus
It's a brand, perhaps, that people may not necessarily be familiar. On this program, we've had Stillwell, Michael Stillwells in, or you're talking about Haymes Paint or Adina Watches, for example. They're more familiar brands. This is not necessarily a household name.
Daniel O'Sullivan
No, it's not. We like to think ourselves as the industry's best kept secret in effect, and I suppose, for corrugated packaging which is so widely used in so many different industries, most people know our major competitors, multinationals by the small companies, Visy and Opal or the old Amcor business. So, we generally just stay in that middle tier of the market.
Tony McManus
So, tell us the history of Abbe.
Daniel O'Sullivan
We've been in the industry now, I suppose our family, we're a 3rd , moving into our 4th generation as a family business in the packaging industry, but for us, we're really a 2nd generation business. Sometimes, we talk about ourselves as this version as 1.5 because we haven't found this mentality to the business because we started at such a young age. When we started, back in 1990, 91, there was only about 15 people when my brothers joined the business. So, we've grown from day one on the factory floor. That's what we did. We worked, full time uni, full time work.
Tony McManus
So, studying, and then in part time you'd go and do some work on the floor.
Daniel O'Sullivan
Absolutely, and it was literally working on the floor, and we were either off the back of the machines and we gradually moved through it. But, for our family, we are steeped in history in the corrugated packaging industry, and it really started from my grandfather in 1954 that had a very well-known company called Cardboard Containers. That business prospered and grew through the 60s and 70s, and they were really doing work with people like Red Tulip back then, and Coca Cola was some of their largest customers and they were very big player. But the market was completely different back then. There was about 20 good sized corrugating businesses but they consolidated over that time, and it really was just the competitive nature of our industry and what we did, so they sort of amalgamated and were taken out by the larger players.
Tony McManus
So, let's go back. You mentioned Red Tulip, for example, everybody now listening would have an idea of what packaging for Red Tulip look like.
Daniel O'Sullivan
I mean, we talk about corrugated boxes, and for people that don't know, corrugated boxes is that box that you receive or goes to the supermarket that holds all your inner packs and all that sort of thing. So, it is used across so many different industries. Anything that needs to be shipped and protected generally goes in a corrugated box, and obviously, we're very fortunate that it is a sustainable product. It gets recycled all the time. So, in the area where we're talking about plastics and all those sort of things, we just have this product already there that's available and it's reusable. It goes back through that whole recycling process.
Tony McManus
What was dad's thinking at the time?
Daniel O'Sullivan
Oh listen, Dad worked for my grandfather with his brother back till 85 till they sold out to the Smorgon's, and Dad was very passionate about packaging. I sort of laugh about it. We laugh about it now but we used to sit at the dinner table and there'd be a box on the side that maybe the fruit and veg came in, and dad would turn it upside down and he'd be touching it and feeling it. I'm sort of embarrassed but proud to say that we also do that right now and our kids do laugh at us. It is just something that this industry gets in your blood. We talk about fibre in your veins, and that's something that I suppose we're really proud about our family. That's what we do.
Tony McManus
Fibre in the veins. I know another great family business to talk about having paint in the veins.
Daniel O'Sullivan
They do, yes.
Tony McManus
Which is, I don't know whether there's any synergy around that. So, the manufacturing sector, by definition, it's never been easy has it?
Daniel O'Sullivan
No, listen, I think it is a challenging area to plane especially, we start talking about imports and we see a lot of offshoring of different industries. We have lost a lot of customers over the years, but at the same time, we're extremely fortunate in packaging that people have to eat and they drink. And we have very clean food in Australia. So, there's a lot of food manufacturing that happens there, so I don't know if I can quite say that our business is recession proof, but it's pretty close to because majority of what we do is food and beverage.
Tony McManus
There could be an argument, and we might come back to this should you choose to do so. Sometimes, there's a discussion about too much packaging. Is that something of which you have been conscious?
Daniel O'Sullivan
Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think that really sits in some of the inner packs. But, at the same time right now, and things like e-commerce, where you don't have that same customer experience that when you went into store and you get the really flashy bag, you get that experience. Packaging now provides that experience that what we call in our game, the unboxing experience to get excited by receiving a parcel.
Tony McManus
Has that shifted in recent years, certainly through COVID presumably, in terms of how much is home delivered, already packaged and comes to your home direct all packaged up?
Daniel O'Sullivan
Yeah, listen, I think there has been some shifting markets there. Really, I suppose through COVID, everything was home delivered and our industry boomed. The trend that we're seeing now is that people are going back in store, they're enjoying that experience. So, there's almost like we're getting back to the real normal, where it should be. E-commerce is still very strong and we're very fortunate that we do a lot of e-commerce packaging, we put automation systems into some of Australia's biggest e-commerce suppliers. So, a lot of the boxes that when my family shop, arrive on our doorstep, and generally we've made that.
Tony McManus
So, shoe boxes for example, who supplies those?
Daniel O'Sullivan
Well, there aren't many shoes made to Australia anymore.
Tony McManus
They're not? So, they all come out from China?
Daniel O'Sullivan
Absolutely.
Tony McManus
Many, most come out from China?
Daniel O'Sullivan
Correct.
Tony McManus
And so, that's produced over there?
Daniel O'Sullivan
Yes, that's correct. That's right.
Tony McManus
I want to go back to how father and grandfather sort of thought about, how did they get into it?
Daniel O'Sullivan
Yeah, interesting. It really goes back to the early days, and these are the stories that I suppose I heard through my dad and really, I think, as a child, and from what the memory was that my nanas wanted to get into a business. They had a little milk bar in Kew called Castle Bar Milk Bar, and then, she obviously saw bigger things and forced him to buy a small packaging business. And things expanded from there.
Tony McManus
Really, that simple?
Daniel O'Sullivan
Oh well, history is the one who tells the story at the end of the day. But that's our understanding.
Tony McManus
We're not going to sell boiled lollies, we are going into the packaging.
Daniel O'Sullivan
I think hindsight is wonderful. I think she made the right decision but he very much got involved and he was very much seen as an industry leader in that area for so many years, and people still talk about cardboard containers. We're very fortunate growing up that dad always took us out to the factory to clean the waste up. We always got the worst jobs first and that's great. That's how you earn your stripes. But I think we were sort of a little bit besotted by the scale of the business and when you talk about corrugated boxes, things are big. They take a lot of space in that area. We saw heavy industry forklifts, all that sort of thing. You just get that smell of the factory. So, for us, it really sort of just got that little bit of enthusiasm and passion about we did what we did. But back when we were 10, 12, we didn't quite understand what we had as a family and what poppy and dad did. I suppose it's only really later down the track in 1990s, 91, where we sort of understood, and then, it sort of unpacked over that time as we sort of developed and grew.
Tony McManus
Where was that very first factory for Abbe?
Daniel O'Sullivan
For Abbe, it was in Campbellfield, so it was a little tiny factory, end up having six factories in that street.
Tony McManus
But that wasn't the first property, where it is manufacturing?
Daniel O'Sullivan
Yes, for Abbe it was.
Tony McManus
But the original business?
Daniel O'Sullivan
The original business of cardboard containers was in Broadmeadows, and we talked about history repeating itself. So, after doing the hard yards in those early days, where we very much slogged it out and we did so many different roles, my brothers and I. Really just, cutting our teeth on what we did, and it sort of varied from production roles to accounts, receivable, payable, dispatch, all those things we sort of touched with some really fantastic people that worked for us for many years. So, we did that. We end up going back to my grandfather's old business, the building, and for us, that was, for Dad, I know it was very memorable and that sort of thing, but it was, very much a corrugating site. We knew it, and that was about, I think, 16 to 18,000 square metres, which at the time was massive from where we went. But like all things when you grow and you look after your customers, and that's what we do at Abbe, business just keeps on moving and we outstripped that factory within about 10 years.
Tony McManus
We'll come back and talk more about those customers, how important customers are to any business, let alone Australian family businesses. Abbe, a leading Australian independent manufacturer right here in Melbourne to other parts of Australia. Special guest Daniel O'Sullivan, Sales and Marketing Director. More, the other side of this.
Every couple of weeks, we catch up with somebody from Family Business Association, and in the studios, Daniel O'Sullivan and Isabel O'Sullivan. We’ll introduce Isabel very shortly. Daniel, Daniel is Sales and Marketing Director from Abbe, one of the great Australian businesses, been around the troupes in one form or another, for long, long time, which is fantastic.
Let's talk to Justin in Melton. Justin, hello. Say hello to Daniel O'Sullivan.
Caller - Justin
How are you, Daniel?
Daniel O'Sullivan
Good, thank you, Justin yourself?
Caller - Justin
Good. I'm looking to start my own business. I'm into like animals and that, what would you give me advice on starting that up?
Daniel O'Sullivan
As far as animals, what sort of animals? In selling animals or?
Caller - Justin
Dogs.
Daniel O'Sullivan
You want to sell dogs?
Caller - Justin
No, just start up a business like caring for dogs, and washing them and that.
Tony McManus
OK, so a dog cleaning sort of enterprise.
Daniel O'Sullivan
Well, listen, I think it's really your customers that you've got to start with because no business is any good without customers. So, you'd very much go out there and I suppose, understand who your customer is, and you tailor your business around what their needs are.
Caller - Justin
OK, cool, and if I started it like early next year or the year after, what sort of income would I get, like depending on the customer, how much income would I get?
Daniel O'Sullivan
Well, Justin, that really depends how good you are, and how big you can grow your business, in what time frame.
Tony McManus
Hey, Justin, have you got a name for it at this stage?
Caller - Justin
No, not yet. I'm still thinking. I'm thinking of my last dog that I had called Lady, and I'm thinking of Lady Washes.
Tony McManus
Oh, Lady Dog Washes. That's got a nice ring to it.
Daniel O'Sullivan
Absolutely.
Caller - Justin
Yeah, definitely, yeah.
Tony McManus
Wish you well with the project. You'd need a vehicle, would it be mobile? Do you see it as being mobile?
Caller - Justin
Yes, I do. Yeah.
Tony McManus
Oh, nice. Wish you well. When the business expands in the next four to five years, then you could be a guest of this little segment at some point as a family business owner.
Daniel O'Sullivan
Absolutely. When your business does well and you want to transport your dogs, let us know and I'll make you a special box for that.
Tony McManus
There you go, there's a contribution already. Already, you're engaging with other great family businesses, Justin. Well done, you. I guess, it’s a legitimate question from Justin. I mean, depending on age and demographic, and you're thinking about, I hear these great stories of people that are in business and doing very, very well, and the challenges around that but it demands an incredible amount of work.
Daniel O'Sullivan
It does.
Tony McManus
It doesn't just happen.
Daniel O'Sullivan
No, it doesn't happen. I think, whether it's good fortune or good luck, but when you're dedicated to something and you're passionate, you naturally, I suppose, do the right thing by people and people do the right thing by you. So, I think for me, and we talk about customers, you need to listen. You need to really listen and you need to problem solve, and you need to help. With that, people trust you, and then, you become the go to person for that product.
Tony McManus
Yeah, #1 priority for any business or family business is customer?
Daniel O'Sullivan
Listen, I think firstly, you've got to look after self and your family first and foremost. I think strong foundations are extremely important because when you work with family, it can be very testing at times so.
Tony McManus
What are the challenges around that?
Daniel O'Sullivan
I think it's really, working with your family, you got to have a really great understanding. You need to put strong foundations down as I said, but it's also having an understanding between your partners, having your vision, having your plan. That's really important. Something we're really strong about, and I know in the early days we probably didn't, we didn't do it, we didn't do much planning. Now, we very much look 3, 5 and 10 years ahead. What does it look like? And I remember back in the earlier days, we used to write, we had a CFO that insisted that we write a strategic plan, and we'd write it and write our goals down, and we put it in the bottom drawer. And then, we pull it out 2 or 3 years later, and we actually achieved those things, whether it was subconsciously or it just happened. But we had a vision and that was what was really important.
Tony McManus
Great friend of this radio station for a long time with Shane Healy and Shane would often talk about businesses that work in the business, but sometimes neglect working on the business.
Daniel O'Sullivan
Yeah, I think that's really important. You've got to work really close with your people, and they're the lifeblood of your business. You look after your people, they look after the customers, and that's still so important. We're extremely fortunate. We are blessed to have some of the best people in the industry that have been with us for a long time. We've got people that have worked for us for 20, 30 years. We've got people that used to work for my grandfather, and their kids have worked for us, so I really can't speak highly enough about these people. I mean, we're about 700 people that we look after, but you think about their families and all that sort of stuff. We are supporting a really wide, large group of people so, there are responsibilities that you need to. But our people, I mean, now, as we grow, it's about further education for those people because the demands are higher. We're a much bigger business than we were 20 years ago. They need to also adapt and grow with the business because the requirement is higher.
Tony McManus
International competitors?
Daniel O'Sullivan
No, we don't have too many. The fortunate thing about my larger competitors is they scare anybody else off of this marketplace. So, for us, we stay in our lane. We know what we're good at, we look after that middle tier of the market. I used to say, many years ago, that the crumbs that they leave on the table were enough for us to feast off for many years. It is getting harder because obviously we're a much bigger business right now but there's still this undercurrent of the market that respects our values, and the value proposition, prices, and price is important.
But what's more important is service, looking after somebody, and corrugated packaging, like a lot of packaging items, is really unique. We don't deliver, we shut you down. You might have 50 people on your factory floor, no boxes, no product moves out the door. So, we must always be communicating with our customers. We've got the fastest lead times in the market but we have to do things differently than our competitors. They have price. We are competitive but are we the cheapest? No. Do we want to be? No, I don't think we do anymore.
Tony McManus
How do you find each other?
Daniel O'Sullivan
As far as?
Tony McManus
Customer and your business.
Daniel O'Sullivan
We get a lot of business from referral. I started selling when I was in my early 20s. I had no sales experience, a little bit self-taught. I was told by my dad to go out to the southeastern suburb, knock on a few doors and you learn, trial and error. Back then, we had another account manager, and one story which I do love, and I've probably told this a million times, was my first sales call. I went down to a little potato cake and flake manufacturer, and I cold called it. About this family, they were a lovely Greek family, and the father and the son, we had a chat with them, and told them what we did, and they said, here's a box, here's a sample of each, go back and quote it. I drove back to the factory that night and I quoted it and I made a sample, and two days later, I went down for my first proposal. The first day on that first meeting, he said, give me 20,000 of that box and 10,000 of the other. I walked out of that and said, this is easy. But from that day, it has got harder. But, just looking after people and doing the right thing was really important.
Tony McManus
Is it only about when we talk about pizza boxes or packaging? What other products are there?
Daniel O'Sullivan
So, for us, we do obviously corrugated boxes, which is our mainstream item, but we've branched out into other areas. We do a lot of glossy boxes so, you think about what we call litho-lam boxes, they've got a nice finish on them, presentation boxes, we're now moving to things like in using technology because we're very much adept to new technology, things like digital print, where we don't have any setups and that sort of stuff, and your display stands and the like. About 13 years ago, we also got involved and we bought a little timber pallet business, so we make timber pallets, standard pallets and that continues to grow and serve both our businesses and all our other customers. So, we've got this, I suppose, basket of goods now that we can go to a customer and we can look after majority of their packaging needs. They trust us, we have long standing relationships with them, and it continues to grow.
Tony McManus
On this program, a couple of weeks ago, we were talking to the owner, great family business, Adina Watches. Making watches in Australia, which, you know, there would be challenges around that given what's been happening in Japan, and certainly the revival of Switzerland but each of those beautiful pieces have to be packaged. And I think we think we're buying this or it gets delivered to our home, where we see it in the shop, and it comes in a package which is all about presentation at that luxury level, and it's got to look right and feel right and consistent with what they're producing.
Daniel O'Sullivan
Yes, and we talk about the boxes, and I don't know whether you guys or your callers ever seen The Simpsons episode where they talk about it's the most boring job in the world is a corrugated box factory. My friends loved it when that episode came out, but you talk about the properties that a cardboard box must have. It must protect. It must ship. You palletise it. You put it on display. There are so many different attributes and facets to a simple humble cardboard box. So, what it allows us to do, I suppose, is we look at our services. So, we talk about design, arts, we talk about structural integrity with packaging engineers and all that sort of stuff. So, it is very complex for that silly little product that a cardboard box is.
Tony McManus
Not that easy. I want to come back and talk to you about some of the mechanics around the production inside a big factory like that. We'll do that in just a moment. Very special guest Australia Overnight and it's a great chat with Daniel O'Sullivan, Sales and Marketing Director for Abbe. It is Australia Overnight. Good morning.
Manager of the Box Factory from The Simpsons
The story of how two brothers had five other men parlayed a small business loan into a thriving paper goods concern is a long and interesting one, and here it is. It all began with the filing of Form 637/a, the application for a small business or farm.
Interesting and important things have been put into boxes over the years. Textiles, other boxes, even children's candy.
Milhouse Van Houten from The Simpsons
Do any of these boxes have candy in them?
Manager of the Box Factory from The Simpsons
No.
Milhouse Van Houten from The Simpsons
Will they ever?
Manager of the Box Factory from The Simpsons
No, we only make boxes that ship nails. Any other questions?
Martin Prince, Jr. from The Simpsons
When will we be able to see a finished box, sir?
Manager of the Box Factory from The Simpsons
We don't assemble them here. That's done in Flint, Michigan.
Bart Simpson from The Simpsons
Have any of your workers ever had their hands cut off by the machinery?
Manager of the Box Factory from The Simpsons
No.
Bart Simpson from The Simpsons
And then the hands started crawling around and tried to strangle everybody?
Manager of the Box Factory from The Simpsons
No, that has never happened.
Tony McManus
There you go. That's something you and I are laughing, which is gorgeous. In the studio, if you've just joined us, is Daniel O'Sullivan, Sales and Marketing Director for Abbe, manufacturers of some amazing boxes. It was a lovely piece, I hadn't heard that before. Benny just found that. I guess, by definition, when you go back to a school, probably does sound a little dull.
Daniel O'Sullivan
Yeah, it does. Generally, when you when you meet someone for the first and they say, what do you do for a living? So, we've had to sort of cover that up a little bit, and so, we say, we have a packaging business. It's a bit more than a box factory, but I hope I'm a bit more exciting than that gentleman in The Simpsons episode.
Tony McManus
It's a great episode, isn't it? Now, I have to have a really good look at that. Tell us about the factory floor, and I mean, manufacturing in Australia has been under the spotlight again, just in the last week from a government point of view. There are ongoing challenges, presumably about any manufacturing business in Australia.
Daniel O'Sullivan
Yeah, there are. I mean it's a really difficult thing, but which we'll talk about manufacturing, I suppose, we'll talk about the process and yeah, we're not a fully integrated manufacturer. So, in the sense that we don't make paper. We buy paper from paper mills. These guys are generally our competitors. We do import some product, but we take paper and.
Tony McManus
But it's a great relationship to have?
Daniel O'Sullivan
Well, it's a symbiotic relationship. They need us and we need them. But so, we take big paper reels and we run them down what we call a corrugator, and that basically unwinds the paper. It puts a flute that corrugation through with steam and pressure, and then, we drive it through, and then we slice it and dice it into whatever form we do in sheet form. A corrugator is about 120 metres long, and generally, it's about 4 metres wide so, they are quite large and capital intensive, but it's very much high technology. You need the very best to keep the efficiencies up because we run it at very, very fast speeds when we make boxes.
Tony McManus
Machinery around that?
Daniel O'Sullivan
Yeah so basically, once the sheet's done, and we'll run it sort of 200 to 250 metres a minute aboard that you're running a web of 2.5 metres wide, you make a lot of boxes per minute, so it also ensures that you've got to have the very best quality because you can make a lot of rubbish very quickly if you get it wrong.
Tony McManus
Yeah, and waste.
Daniel O'Sullivan
Waste absolutely. That's really important. So, we then take that sheet and we run it through conveyors. We try to keep forklifts out of our factory to keep a very safe environment and we take it to converting machines where we'll print it, cut it and glue it, sometimes in various stages, depends on the complexity of the box.
Tony McManus
Is recycling something about which you are conscious?
Daniel O'Sullivan
Absolutely. So, all our waste will be bailed and that will be sent for recycling to be turned back into paper.
Tony McManus
That you use or it goes back somewhere else out of it?
Daniel O'Sullivan
Goes back into the waste stream. In effect, it's like a commodity, that waste paper.
Tony McManus
Yeah, because that is an ongoing challenge for everybody. Every industry such as yours, I mean, where does all this stuff end up?
Daniel O'Sullivan
Well, ours ends up back in paper and we get to use it again. It goes back into the industry so we are very fortunate that our industry has been sustainable for so many years and we'll continue to do that.
Tony McManus
Daniel, tell us about staff. I think you said there's 750 on board at the moment?
Daniel O'Sullivan
Yeah, we're about 700.
Tony McManus
Does that fluctuate?
Daniel O'Sullivan
Yeah, it fluctuates. We use a little bit of casual labour high but we operate 7 different sites around Australia, mainly in New South Wales and Victoria, but we have regional sites where we make, obviously, the cardboard box at the factory, and we ship that to one of our regional locations where we'll put that through machine and we'll erect it. So, for example, fruit trays. You get your avocados or your grapes, it's in a tray. So, we assemble it, we send it out to the customer, and they pack straight into it and then send to market. So, we're dealing with lots of different industries. And one thing that people, I suppose, don't quite understand is we deal with almost every industry that manufactures. That's what we get to do. So, we are blessed and fortunate that we meet so many different family businesses of different industries but they all have common thoughts and common goals and that's something that I really love about it.
Tony McManus
From a family point of view, and for the success of the business, and also, the people that rely on you for their survival, that's something about which you are very conscious?
Daniel O'Sullivan
Yeah, very much so. I mean, I work together with my family. We've got lots of families that work for us, and in the early days, we used to, we had a predominantly Vietnamese workforce. That was a number of families that worked in the factory and worked side by side with us in the early days.
Tony McManus
Is that still the case?
Daniel O'Sullivan
Yeah, it sort of varies. It has changed. I think we get a lot of new immigrants to this country, and we welcome those, and look to upskill them. But the base has grown dramatically so, we're pulling from lots of different places and we're in different regions now. Back then, we were predominantly in Victoria. Now, we've got 3 factories in New South Wales, so obviously, the demographic does change.
Tony McManus
And some of those regional centres, they rely on having strong little hubs of manufacturers in those areas.
Daniel O'Sullivan
Yeah, we'll talk about Mildura, somewhere that, I suppose, that area has been really good to us. The people are fantastic.
Tony McManus
Because fruit?
Daniel O'Sullivan
Fruit, yeah. So, really around the table, grape market, to a lesser extent, citrus and avocados. But we have met some fantastic families that work together that are multi-generational that understand, appreciate what we do, and we service them and we have built very strong relationships with these families. And as you know, we've been doing this a long time. We're now seeing the next generation come through. So, we build a relationship with, we've got Dad, and we've got the boys in the field or the girls and it naturally transitions. So, that's something that, I suppose, you do the work early and you build strong relationship, you build trust and it keeps on coming back.
Tony McManus
What about all those cars that go into Dan’s, one of the majors, and you look at the amazing amount of boxes, cartons that are used for those products, whether it be wine or whether it be beer. I mean, there is so much being generated.
Daniel O'Sullivan
There is. So, you do look at what goes into Dan’s, and there is a range of good family businesses in the wine sector. We do supply a number of those, but we look at the supermarket shelves and it's not all the big guys there. There are lots of, medium-sized family business that are supplying supermarkets. That all goes in a cardboard box. That's all in a shelf ready packaging. That's the name we call it.
Tony McManus
One of the great joys is wine for me because we love the occasional glass and there's a great business, family business, Brown Brothers. And so, Ross and the family, but it should now be referred to as Brown Sisters, which is phenomenal because they're doing amazing things in that sector and that's an evolution of their brand and their business to have that involvement from the young people coming through.
Daniel O'Sullivan
Yeah, I mean, they're a multi-generational business that, I think, I'm not sure if they’re 4th or 5th generation, probably further.
Tony McManus
At least. Morning Ross will be listening.
Daniel O'Sullivan
Absolutely, and I think they are really what businesses like ourselves aspire to be like and there are a number of those family businesses that are have been involved in the Family Business Association that we have been fortunate of watching them over the years and some of their stories, good and bad, and the honesty that comes through with that new, you just pick up little bits and pieces by being involved in such a fantastic organisation.
Tony McManus
The future, is it looking good? We'll find out. The other side of this.
What have you doing? It's nice to have your company. I'm Tony McManus. A special guest in the studio, we talk every couple of weeks of great, amazing family businesses from Family Business Association. Daniel O'Sullivan, Sales and Marketing Director for Abbe. There wouldn't be any businessperson listening now that is not being constantly asked to support a charity, a foundation, a school drive, a lamington drive or whatever it is. Is that constant and how do you manage that from a business point of view in terms of budgets for that sort of stuff?
Daniel O'Sullivan
Really great question, Tony. We obviously get a lot of requests from different people, and you've got to be fair and equitable in that area. We decided a long time ago that we needed to find a charity that resonated, something that we could put all our energies into. So about or I think it's almost 2 years ago, we met a couple of young girls that have been working or created the foundation called The Good Box, and that really resonated with us because it was cardboard packaging. But what they do is basically, they send out care packages to underprivileged people on the street. So we are their diamond partner, and the staff get involved packing these boxes and it's a wonderful organisation that's doing some fantastic work, but it's our staff now getting involved and wanting a piece of that and they actually hand write the cards to the people on the street. A simple message to say, we do care about you and I hope this does make a little difference in your life. So, that's something that we continue our support and watch their good work prosper.
Tony McManus
And from a business point of view, you budget for that, that's included? This is our commitment, this is what we're going to do.
Daniel O'Sullivan
At Abbe, we’re structured so, things like that have to go to our Family Council, where we sit down as a family unit with some advisors and we talk about what do we get involved in and we need to all agree on that.
Tony McManus
Yeah, because that phone never stops ringing with requests.
Daniel O'Sullivan
Yeah, absolutely, and I think there are so many good charities, but we can do the most work looking after one.
Tony McManus
Yeah, and congratulations on that. Now, just quietly during the break, you mentioned the Carlton Football Club. In this building at 3AW, I think I'm the only one that doesn't bear it because, which is fun, and you'd been happy with the season so far?
Daniel O'Sullivan
Yeah, I am. I mean, last weekend was a little bit of a hiccup, but I think that'll probably teach us. We can learn from those things, and you learn from your failures, and I think that's really important.
Tony McManus
Learnings, they're the learnings. Every coach now says there's more learnings. It's, all of a sudden, become plural, which is great. Tell us about the future. What does that look like? What are the challenges, and how important is your relationship inside Family Business Association?
Daniel O'Sullivan
So, we'll talk first, about the future. Listen, it's really positive. We've got a very strong reputation for service, and word of mouth is really our best advertising. That works. We're so across so many different industries. Short term, it's difficult right now. The economy is suffering, it is hard out there. Cost of living crisis, all those sort of things, the financial impacts right now, I think, are really starting to show, and we talk about business closing. We would lose a customer to administration every two weeks at the moment and these are small family.
Tony McManus
Every two weeks?
Daniel O'Sullivan
Yeah, every two weeks, there is another business going into administration, and we talk about certain sectors that are doing a lot harder, like the alcohol sector right now is suffering. A lot of those craft brewers, I mean, they're the lifeblood of our business. They are going belly up with the increasing tax and all those sort of things. So, we've got to be very careful that we obviously need to be supportive of our customers but we also need to ensure that we keep fairly strict terms with them at the same time.
Tony McManus
Do you get to have a relationship at a state and federal in terms of government?
Daniel O'Sullivan
Not particularly. I mean, for us, we just stick to our lane in what we do. FBA, I think, now is having more of a voice at those areas but for us, it's really supporting our customers through some of those tough times as well, within reason.
Tony McManus
We were talking about succession, which is a challenge for every small business, but family businesses in particular.
Daniel O'Sullivan
Succession, it's something that, I suppose, we tackled relatively early. Dad's been brilliant within the business and very much had the resilience to keep on going in the early days and showed us how to do it but it got to a point where we were grown men that were fairly ambitious and he obviously had the vision, and all the good fortune to sort of step back and allow us to really move in the business, develop our roles, and develop our skill set and really take some very strong leadership roles in the business. So, Dad's still relatively involved, and Mum is too. She's a big supporter of us. We're extremely all fortunate, the three of us, that we've got wives and families that are ultimately extremely supportive. Most families don't understand the hours that we work and what we have to give in for a family business, and we've been blessed to have the right people behind us the whole way.
Tony McManus
Because it can look glam from the outside.
Daniel O'Sullivan
Yes, most things can, and it's not all roses. It never is. But you got to work at those things. You got to put in. You've got to get educated and give yourself the tools to navigate the difficulties that one, in business, but two, in business with your family.
Tony McManus
And with your brothers, in particular, you've got to look at that next gen coming through, and that's exciting, really, isn't it? For any business.
Daniel O'Sullivan
I think it's extremely exciting, but it's extremely challenging, and the reason why I say that, when we start on the factory floor, we developed a passion over time because we had to. Our children are in a different position. They get to choose what they want to do, and we want them to explore those things. But we've also done a lot of work as a family and talk about the next generation and put structures in place. Things about Family Constitution, when do the kids enter the business? How do they enter the business? There is no divine right to come and work in your families in the senior role. You earn that and that's really important. So, for us now, we've got my older brother Anthony, his son is in the business for about a year, and he'll go off and do that. And my daughter Isabel that’s so kind to join us today here, has worked in the business for a short snippet and she's finding her own feet now in something. Now, whether she comes back or not, I won't say there's no pressure, but it's got to be right for her. But she's got to find her own feet in the world.
Tony McManus
So it becomes their decision?
Daniel O'Sullivan
Yes, it does.
Tony McManus
With a little bit of encouragement.
Daniel O'Sullivan
Well, I think we're only custodians of this business and that's really important that we do want to hand it on but if the kids don't want to enter the business and don't feel it's right, they've got their own passions, then we've got some really capable people that will continue this business on.
Tony McManus
That relationship inside Family Business Australia with other like-minded businesses, how important?
Daniel O'Sullivan
Brilliant. I mean, FBA, I really can't speak high enough of FBA because the learnings that you get, the relationships, the forum group process is absolutely brilliant. One thing that is really difficult, I suppose, when you are in a family business is you can't talk to your brothers or your partners about issues. Your friends don't understand. But meeting like-minded people to work those things through has been brilliant.
Tony McManus
It's wonderful to meet you, Daniel O'Sullivan.
Daniel O'Sullivan
Thank you, Tony.
Tony McManus
Thank you very much. Daniel O'Sullivan, Sales and Marketing Director. Abbe, it's all part of Family Business Association.
