James Stewart
G'day everybody, welcome to another episode of What I Learned in Business That Didn't Kill Me. And a big thank you to our episode sponsor, the Family Business Association, supporting family businesses across Australia and New Zealand. Now, today we're going to the pub. Well, not exactly, but we are going deep into the beer business and specifically one of Australia's most iconic and enduring beverage businesses, South Australia's famous Coopers Brewery. My special guest today is Andrew Cooper. Andrew is a sixth generation family member, an executive director, and part of the next chapter of this remarkable story. Coopers Brewery started in 1862, survived wars, depressions, industry consolidation and even a hostile takeover attempt, and today stands as Australia's largest family-owned brewery. Now, while we're going to have a great conversation about the business of beer, We're also going to unpack how the Cooper family has managed ownership, control and leadership over time, what innovation looks like in a market where consumer preferences are changing and consumers are drinking less beer, and how brand portfolios are being adapted and reinvented while retaining their heritage. Let's get into it. Andrew, welcome to the show.
Andrew Cooper
Morning, James. How are you doing? Nice to meet you on Monday morning. We're not quite in the pub, but I am at a brewery on a Monday, so there are lesser places to be.
James Stewart
Oh, good, I love it. I love being in a brewery on a Monday. Perfect place to do business. Now. Andrew, before the call, we were chatting about your involvement in the business and that you didn't join the business until you're in your 30s. Can you talk about that? Because I'm coming across this more and more where family businesses are actually taking quite a structured approach. Talk us through your journey before you joined the family business.
Andrew Cooper
Yeah, that's right. I'm 42 today and I've only been in our family business for just coming up to 9 years.
James Stewart
Well, happy birthday, by the way.
Andrew Cooper
No, thank you. Thank you. Not today, today. Forty-two at this age. Okay. Yeah, but no, 42 and been in the brewery nine years, and I say that I've been around it since nappies, sort of had exposure to the place for a very long time, but didn't really join until I was in my early 30s, so I joined about 33. So yeah, we have a policy for family members, which I think we're going to touch on later, but family members have to have really earned their stripes before being given the opportunity to potentially join Coopers Brewery. But now I grew up in beautiful Adelaide, South Australia, pretty wonderful place to grow up as a young person. My gran actually lived on Statenborough Street where the old brewery was in the leafy eastern suburbs of of Adelaide in Leabrook. I grew up around the brewery, but really did my education here in South Australia at school and then into university doing economics at Adelaide University. At that age, you don't really know exactly what you want to do. You've got some exposure to the family business, but you know it's a long way off. I started my career in studying economics and then getting into stockbroking of all things. My first job was at Goldman Sachs, JBWere here in Adelaide. the pushing of the paper, the opening of the accounts, the learning a little bit about stocks and morning meetings and all these interesting things. And then eventually, after just about a year, made a move with a number of colleagues to Macquarie Bank. So it's that sort of, again, that private wealth side of stockbroking and investing. So I started my career and background in that space. was there for several years and started to really think after a while that maybe I'll be better at selling booze than I was at selling stocks. So I did depart from that industry after learning an enormous amount and having a wonderful time and working with several wonderful leaders and mentors throughout that time. But I studied an MBA full time, sort of really committed myself to that. knocked through that quite quickly. And then got my first job in the alcohol beverage industry with a company called Pernod Ricard. It's a large French wine and spirits company. So an entry commercial role in that organization, which eventually took me to interstate and over to Sydney. And then I made an international jump to a company called Diageo, which is one of the world's biggest spirits companies, actually one of the world's biggest whisky companies, with brands like Johnnie Walker and things like that. So I started to cut my teeth, so to say, so to speak, in the beverage world, just more selling whisky and spirits than beer. That really, that sort of took me interstate and overseas. You learn all about business and primarily the commercial side of things, not so much the production side is where I was. I was in the commercial and sales and marketing arena. That was a wonderful period of time in life and would never have given up the experiences that I had during that. But it was, I was living in Singapore, my wife and I, now wife, we're living in Singapore. She's a lawyer. So the two of us were living that wonderful expat life where you're working hard, having new experiences, meeting new people, traveling a lot with access to Asia and the rest of the world and traveling a bit for work. And then, yeah, it was about the age of 33 where some conversations started happening. I had several conversations with the senior leaders back here at Coopers Brewery. And then at 33, I sort of made the move back. to Melbourne. We had an office there and still do with a lot of our significant sales operations happening out of there. So I made the move to Melbourne and yeah, began my journey in the family business. So yeah, not till 33.
James Stewart
I love that little anecdote that you're better at selling booze than selling stocks. I think you can always put that on the back of your business card.
Andrew Cooper
Yeah, I'm maybe being hard on myself. I think I was okay at selling stocks, but you know, probably realised that the heart was in the stories, the brands, and the commercial cut and thrust of business in the beverage space. So that's what started to draw me towards that. Yeah, okay.
James Stewart
Well, let's talk about that because you've had some great experiences at Diageo and Pernod Ricard. And then you do join the family business. I mentioned sort of in the intro, you join it relatively, you know, you've had a good 10 years out of the family business. You're in the workforce, you're doing your thing. And the family has a policy of family members developing relevant skills and experience outside the business before they join the business. And you're impacted by that policy. So can you talk to us about how did that policy come about? It sounds like a very mature policy to me for any business, to be perfectly honest with you. You actually developed some skills outside before you came in. How did that policy come about?
Andrew Cooper
Yeah, that's exactly as to how it came about. I'm not entirely sure in that, you know, it was sort of, it was brought in, I believe, by the fifth generation. So some of the context I think that is important is, you know, we're a sixth generation family brewery now, right? So, from Thomas to the second generation to the third generation to the, I think even to the fourth, that policy, I don't believe it wouldn't have existed. Right. So it would have been that. brewery goes down to children, down to children. But there was a period during the time of the fourth generation where it hasn't always been smooth sailing for our company. There's really been several, four or five near-death experiences for the business. And it was a tough time for the company with the fourth generation. So not all of it, but some of it. So they, I believe, said to their children, look, go out and do your own thing. The brewery may not be here. There was a period, I believe, where Bill Cooper said to his children, Dr Tim Cooper and Melanie, that if we don't survive the next six weeks, we're probably not going to be here. There was an encouragement for that generation to go out and do their own thing. So Dr. Tim, obviously, he's a medical doctor, so he didn't just, he went out and studied in the medical world. It was in the UK for several years. Melanie, an accounting background. My father, Glenn Cooper, who eventually was in the business as our director of sales and marketing and chair, he was an electrician for a period of time. And then he started his own computer business, got the knocks in the head in the business world there. So that generation went out and did their own thing for a while. But then the business stabilized through the hardworking efforts of the fourth generation. Things started to look a little better and conversations started to be had with the fifth generation about joining. So it's important context. That policy that you're referring to hasn't always been there. And then with the fifth generation, really, as the companies continue to perform well, there's probably a fair bit of interest from young people, sixth generation family members, to join. And the fifth generation would have seen the value of their time outside of the company. So it became really important to say, well, it is a privilege to be in Coopers Brewery and to be in this wonderful family business. So go out and earn your stripes. I always say sort of get a bit kicked around by a customer or a boss that really doesn't care what your last name is. Get some experience and some skills to bring back to the family business. so that you can contribute meaningfully. So that policy, I believe, came in under the fifth generation's leadership. And to sort of put it simply, minimum age of 30, relevant university education relevant experience outside of the family business. I believe when you join, you can't be sort of reporting directly to a parent or a sibling. And if these things are in place, you may be invited to join. So it's not that you can, it wouldn't go so well if the 30th birthday you had some of these things and you just sort of said, oh, time now. So you may be invited to join. And I think that's one thing that The sixth generation, there's several of us in the business, would look back on our time outside and we'd never give it up, the experiences we had and how that shaped us as individuals and as business professionals to come in and contribute meaningfully. And we've all done that in different areas of the business as well. So we now look at it and go, wow, we've got a wonderful team of individuals to hopefully carry the company forward. So yeah, never give that time up, it was extremely valuable.
James Stewart
I almost call that authentic osmosis. Because the fact that the business went through a number of near-death experiences, which a lot of businesses do, and a lot of family businesses do, and it happens for different reasons, right? Sometimes it happens for reasons beyond people's control. Sometimes it happens because of the dynamic and capability gaps that might exist inside the business. And the fact that your family went through those experiences and said, look, hey, look, we might not make it. We might not make it, so maybe think about another career, but then you got to the other side of it and then you get to a place where you go, well, look, I know we're in a better place. Let's be more considered about family members coming to the business. I think that's a great story. I think that's so authentic. I really do think that's a, I'm not saying it would have been a fun path for the fourth generation, but I think it's a great path to where you've got to.
Andrew Cooper
No, all those experiences and challenges sort of continue to shape us. So yeah, there's no doubt there's a couple of customers. We value all of our our customers, but if you've gone into the first meeting without the experience you've got, you'd be eaten alive. And also, I think it's really important, both with your external stakeholders and your internal stakeholders, for them to know that you're not a Johnny or Susie come-lately, you really have built a career and you have some skills and experience and that's important to earn the respect of the people that you work with as well.
James Stewart
So you've got the credits, you've got the credits, the most important thing. So look, while we're on the topic of that, because I want to talk about that external experience piece a little bit more. And the business appointed... Michael Shearer as the first non-family managing director in 2025. Now in reality, I think before the call you said Michael has been with the business for over 20 years by the time he was appointed. And that was, he was appointed when Dr. Tim Cooper stepped down from the role. But I'd like to know more about how the business has now thought about approaching long-term leadership and succession planning. And what did the business do to kind of set Michael up for success in terms of making sure he had the skills, experience and capability to take on the role at the right time?
Andrew Cooper
Yeah, and when it comes to long-term succession and planning, I mean, that doesn't just mean family members, right? That is... leadership and executive leadership team and all sorts of important pivotal roles in the company. So Succession is not just for family members alone. And yes, Michael has been with the business for decades. And he's got wonderful experience. And what Michael doesn't know about Coopers Brewery and what's going on in this company. it's a very short list of things. He's across an enormous amount. And so, particularly the sixth generation, we're really grateful for that. leadership, but also his guidance. And he's a very observant person. So he sort of observes the company and helps us to understand the landscape. So we're very grateful for that, not just the family members, but the executive leadership team, grateful to have Michael. You could do another podcast with Michael alone and hear about his story in Coopers Brewery, and it would be incredibly interesting from a different perspective. Someone who's in their family businesses are family businesses. They're interesting places, you know, you've got that added dynamic of family, which Michael, I say navigates, you know, beautifully. And it's not easy, but he does it incredibly well. So you could and should one day have a podcast with him to learn about his experience.
James Stewart
All right, well consider that invitation open.
Andrew Cooper
Yeah, oh God, you set me up for that one, thank you. But no, as far as how the business approaches and succession like that. it wasn't, I mean, it wasn't a short runway for Michael. he was really operating as general manager. I might get this number exactly wrong, but. more than five years as general manager and commercial manager prior to that. So at least a decade of really in-depth time in the rooms of leadership in the business. So a good long runway, which was important because family businesses, times of succession. they're not all family businesses successfully transition from one generation to the next. So they can be challenging times for family businesses. But no, I think the company and the board, so the board are obviously the decision makers on a lot of those dynamics and the board appoints the managing director. And so, yes, Michael was appointed and he's the right person for the job. He's an incredibly experienced person, very, very safe pair of hands and he backs us in. So, no, I think that's his journey alone through the succession in Coopers. kudos to Michael to become the first non-family managing director of Coopers Brewery in 164 years is an incredible achievement.
James Stewart
Fantastic. So well let's actually talk about that. Let's just talk about the 164 year history of Cooper's. And can you give us a quick whistle stop tour because I'm trying to think of a... another family business in Australia, which is 164 years old, and I'm not sure I can think of one. Just how did it start? We're going back a long time. How did it start?
Andrew Cooper
Yeah, there are family businesses that are older than us. I wouldn't be able to list them all, but I was having a drink with a good friend, Jess Hill Smith, Hill Smith family, Yalumba Wines. So I think they're over 175 now. And I think when we're having our first drink together, I said, God, you've got us by 13 years, that's really impressive. There are other ones out there that are older than us. It's a very long story, but I'll keep it condensed for the purposes of today. But really it was started by my great, great, great grandfather Thomas Cooper. There are sort of several pictures around the brewery of him with a big, big long beard. So Thomas and his wife, Anne, immigrated from England, from an area called Skipton in Yorkshire. So in 1852, they made their long journey on a boat called the SS Omega down to really the other side of the planet to start a new life. And you think about back in those days, it's quite an incredible journey, several months at sea, children with him and his wife on the journey and was pregnant at the time and they said they lost a child at sea because obviously young people would pass easier today without the modern medicine that we have, but they lost a young one at sea and then also gave birth at sea as well to another daughter. So what a journey back in those days to the other side of the world to start a new life. So that was in 1852. And while they were here, Thomas had several jobs. So he was a bootmaker, a stonemason. He built his own house in Norwood by hand. And he had some dairy cattle for a while. But it wasn't until 1862, so 10 years after they first arrived, that when Anne fell ill, fishing through the luggage, there was a recipe from Anne's father's inn back in Yorkshire, England, the old English style inn of how to brew a beer. And back in those days, when someone was ill, you would brew them a restorative ale. So he brewed his first ever batch of beer, which you can only assume was in something like a bathtub. probably open, probably incredibly unhygienic, no refrigeration back then and hot Adelaide summers, so he did battle with things like infection back then. But brewed his first ever batch of beer called brew A for Anne, and then he would have had some leftover which went to friends and neighbours. And then what really began as a bit of a a hobby as many brewers begin, sort of home brew, so to speak, started to grow gradually into a business. So he would deliver the beer and sell the beer by a horse and cart to the neighbours. I believe one of his early customers was Dr. Christopher Penfolds of Penfolds Wines. So that was sort of... where it all began in the early years was one of those near-death experiences. He fell on hard times financially, had to sell all of his brewing equipment, but he wasn't rendered bankrupt. The company wasn't rendered bankrupt. So it nearly finished as soon as it began, but Thomas managed to get back on his feet and pick up his brewing equipment again and start brewing once more.
James Stewart
I have to say, as we're recording today, my wife is sick in bed. She's not well. But you've just inspired me to go and get her a restorative ale.
Andrew Cooper
A restorative ale, yeah. Monday morning, she's expecting the hot coffee and you come in with a Sparkling Ale. I'm doing it.
James Stewart
She's going to go, what are you doing? I said, I've just been speaking to the sixth generation, Andrew.
Andrew Cooper
So you're both creative and brave.
James Stewart
Or stupid, or stupid. So I have to say, that's a great story. You know, when you think about first-generation migrant Australians and the journey they've gone through, and I don't know that I can get my mind around, you know, packing up from one part of the world, moving to another part of the world after sort of two or three months at sea as you're never going back. It's not like you're jumping on a plane next week and going back. So that's just, it's incredible. There's plenty I'm sure we could explore about the Cooper family business story. I feel like I want to jump into what makes Coopers beers so special because I think If I go down the whole Coopers history, I'll get caught in a rabbit hole and we might never come out of it.
Andrew Cooper
Wonderful. When you come and have a beer at our beautiful visitor centre here. We've got the family tree and you can see Thomas has the two wives and 19 children and all of that. So that's one for another visit.
James Stewart
All right, well, Andrew, I'm going to come over. I'm going to come over and we're going to have a beer at the Coopers Brewery and maybe if we get a chance, we'll go play golf. But that's absolutely fantastic. So can I ask you, and I have a lot of friends of mine, I mean, beer drinking is changing and we're going to come and talk about that. I have friends of mine who sort of swear by Coopers Brewery, Coopers Beer. They just kind of like it's their go-to, don't even think about anything else. And the beer is marketed as naturally conditioned ale. Now, I actually don't know what that is and I'd love you to just explain why Coopers beer as naturally conditioned ale is different from other beers.
Andrew Cooper
Yes, yeah, happy to. But I will premise with this that I'm not a technical brewer, right? So I've got the very base level of the international brewing and distilling course on brewing. But if you wanted a more technical discussion, then we've got several expert brewers and Ian Cooper, for example, Sixth Generation Cooper is another one that could talk all day about the technical brewing side of our ales. Yes, our ales are the naturally conditioned beers. So we do a very unique process called secondary fermentation. Right. So of course, like all beers into the brewhouse, the milling, the mashing, the filtration into the kettle to boil and sterilize and add hops and things, all the same, into the whirlpool to separate all the solid materials from from the wort itself. As it's going into the fermentation tanks, that's sort of like all other breweries, another, the fermentation where yeast is, you can tell I'm not a technical brewer because I use very layman's terms here. Yeast is added, which is adding, eating the residual sugars and creating CO2 and alcohol, right? So that's sort of beginning to carbonate the beer. Most beers, they'll be going through that process to turn wort into beer. ales are being packaged, we then will go and do something a little different, which is secondary fermentation. So as it's going through towards the bottle, keg or can, whatever the vessel, and this is in place for our ales, our lagers don't go through this process. Another little bit of live yeast. is then injected and added into the beer. So it's perfectly natural, it's live. And that yeast will then eat the remaining residual sugars, a little bit of priming sugar in the bottle, continue to mature. So it'll ferment a little more and bring up that CO2. So it basically carbonates the beer naturally. So you're not force carbonating with CO2, your ale beers?
James Stewart
Yeah, right. You're not pumping air into it.
Andrew Cooper
So that yeast will work away in the bottle, keg or can, create a little bit more CO2, bring it up to a little bit more alcohol and really bring the beer to its full maturity. So if you get a can off the line, straight off the line, you'll feel there's a little bit of flex into it. You get that can 10 days later after it's been secondary fermenting and it's sort of firmed up, right? So that little bit more carbonation has occurred. And that's why our ales are unique where you can see that sediment, that yeast sediment in the bottom. So perfectly natural, delicious. That's why we talk about the roll as well. So sort of rolling our beers in the bottle or can to filter that sediment through and give it its natural cloudy appearance, which is sort of signature to our beers. So not many brewers are doing secondary fermentation at scale anymore globally. There'd be less than a handful, probably plenty out of maybe Belgium that are doing it on smaller scale. I think one or two out of the US on larger scale. But it's not easy to do at scale. And it's something that we've perfected over a century. That's why our ales are a little different. And that's why, for example, some people will ask, they'll go, Why you don't have a best before date on your ales? You have a best-after date. And they sort of get a bit confused by that, and they'll see the date, and they'll go, Hang on, the date's in the past, like quite a way in the past. It's this beer old. But you go, No, it's not best before, it's best-after. And that's really because that is about 10 days after it rolls off the line. So it's that they're saying it's come, it's gone through that secondary fermentation process, reached full maturity. So yeah, it's different.
James Stewart
Well, I must say, I feel like I've learned something and I do feel like I'm going to bolt out and buy a six pack of Coopers. You've got me going on it. That's terrific. So when we think about the brewery business, How vertically integrated is it in terms of, because your contract brew for other breweries as well as doing your own stuff. Is there a thing in your world where you can be vertically integrated as a business?
Andrew Cooper
Yeah, definitely. The best example of vertical integration in our business is of course the malting works. So before it is. Malting barley goes into the brew house to become part of the, to become beer and part of the brewery. One up the supply chain, of course, is malting barley. So buying barley direct from the farmers, depending on the yield and the year, it's can be 100% from South Australian farmers, at lowest 80%, but more often on the higher side. We buy the barley from the farms and then that will come straight into the brewery and we will turn that into malting barley through the whole steeping and germination and kilning process. So that is really getting our primary ingredient in malt under our own control. So that malt will then go into the brewing process. We'll also sell that malt to other breweries domestically and internationally as well. So that's probably the best example of true vertical integration. It's been wonderful for us from a brewery perspective, but also in the future, which we might talk about a bit later, is we'll be having a whisky. So the first part of a whisky is a brew. So that same malt that we put through the malting works actually come at the moment is coming from a single farm on York Peninsula. And this malt called spirit malt is actually going into our microbrewery and through our distillery and into barrels to become whisky. Another example of how that vertical integration has given us opportunity in a beer adjacent category as well.
James Stewart
Fantastic. All right, so the business sells package beer, keg beer, sells it to hotels, sells it to direct to consumer and contract brewing. And so is there an optimal mix in your... product vessels, for want of a better word, in terms of how you think about what the mix is for when you take the beer to market.
Andrew Cooper
Yeah, not I would say like as an optimal one. And we also, in short, this year we'll probably do between 80 and 81 million litres of beer coming up to the June end of financial year. I had to check these stats this morning because we get the daily sales report and I'm like, I better get these stats correct. Roughly 87% of that is the Coopers beer brand. So most of the beer that we're brewing is Coopers. We do have a number of wonderful international partner brands. So Carlsberg from Denmark, we brew, so we're a licensed brewer, distributor and marketer and seller for that one. Sapporo Premium, Kronenbourg, the French beer. So we brew them. There is another brand that we just brewed. We don't sell in market. But really 80% of the beer that we're doing is Coopers. As far as the mix of keg versus packaged beer. So kegs, which have been surprisingly strong this year for the market and for us as well, about 13% of our beer. Kegs are a little more profitable than packaged beer, primarily because it's sort of 50 litres of beer going out in a big steel can versus 9 litres of glass and cardboard or aluminium. So that means about 87% of our volume is packaged beer. And so that's sort of the various sort of mixes across the vessels. But yeah, look. Most of what we're doing is Coopers among the brands that you'd know. Our Original Pale Ale is by far our biggest. And then the Coopers Mild Ale 3.5, which is our mid-strength ale, is really, really coming up strong after years and years of investment into it.
James Stewart
For decades, the Family Business Association has helped family businesses navigate governance, leadership, succession, and generational transition. Exactly the kind of conversation we're unpacking today. Now, back to Andrew and the Cooper story. I do want to talk about technology and artificial intelligence because I love just talking about that stuff, but I'm going to come back to it. What I'd love to talk to you about now is then you're talking about your different brands you've got. I'd love just to touch on the Coopers brand portfolio strategy because it's not only the different brands that you've got under the Coopers banner, you've also got the contracting brands, but then you've got different types of beers. So you've got your ales, your stout, your lager, then you've got different price points for beers. Then we've got a market that's shifting to low and no alcohol beers. You've got the home brew stuff, which I think the first generation would have been proud of, and you've got ciders. Can you just talk about how does Coopers think about where the brand portfolio strategy directionally is going and what that mix looks like?
Andrew Cooper
It's a good question because... I'd say compared to our competitors, we're fortunate to have, I would say, a relatively simple portfolio, even though we don't have dozens of brands to try and bring to market. We have the Coopers brand, as we said, sort of 87% of our beer, with several. lots of different beer styles within that. So how we would go about forming our portfolio strategy is always obviously responding to consumer and category needs and trends. Where we might be a little different in that is that we are, I believe, extraordinarily patient in our approach to that. So we are fortunate to be able to take a very long-term view and invest in our products and brands in market, provided we continue to see a consumer desire and trend in that area to invest with patience. You mentioned lower ABV beers or beers sort of off from the full strength. So our Mild Ale of 3.5%, I'd say that's been around, I'm probably going to get this wrong, maybe 18 years roughly. And now, after decades of continued investment behind it and focus behind it, it's a real strong driver of growth for us and has sort of stepped up into the ranks of our portfolio. number two. But that's taken patience, same as our flagship Original Pale Ale. Once there was a change in ownership of several pubs in South Australia a long time ago, that was quite an opportunity for us to expand and get on the tap banks around South Australia. And then through what was really a distribution joint venture and a company called Premium Beverages, which is now just all absolved into Coopers Brewery, we were able to get our Original Pale Ale out nationally. So you'd be might be surprised to learn that sort of roughly 80% of our volume is actually outside of South Australia now. So South Australia is heart and home. And you come to our wonderful visitor centre here and that's very clear. But we're now an Australian brand. Our approach, by being an Australian brand as well, you've got to then consider the different reasons to matter to consumers in different states around the country. So we've had wonderful success in in New South Wales in particular. So New South Wales is often our biggest state now by size. But our portfolio approach has been patient. I'd say that one thing interesting about the Coopers brand is you do need to patiently invest in the core and continue to do that. And when I would say the core, it's the original Pale Ale, it's your Sparkling Ale, it's the Mild Ale 3.5, it's the Best Extra Stout. And the core would also now include several lager products as well, like Cooper's Australian Lager, Dry 3.5, which is a mid-strength low-carb beer. So you invest in that core patiently over time, but you still need to innovate. You still need to innovate and create, and you can't ignore the consumer trends. You need to innovate around the edges and create interest. in your brands, in your beers, bring out things that are a little different, a little exciting, and lean towards a consumer trend when it comes. But you can't innovate wildly, I don't believe, on the Coopers brand, personally. Maybe I'm getting more conservative with age. But I think if you were bringing out a Coopers seltzer one day and a Lemon RTD the next, I don't think that would be the best thing for the long-term health of the brand.
James Stewart
You've got to stay core of the Herish, but you've touched on consumer trends, so let's just talk about that for a second. Because I'm just trying to reconcile in my mind, I really do like the patient strategy, that I think there's a consistency to that, there's a brand reliability to that, would actually resonate with many, many consumers. But we've also got a generation of consumers, mostly younger, who are either not drinking beer or they're drinking less or they're drinking low alcohol or no alcohol beer. How you then... thinking about some of those trends are happening maybe a little bit quicker than a little bit slower. How are you thinking about reconciling the patient strategy with those changing consumer trends?
Andrew Cooper
Yes, it's a really big question. And I'd say that, but the first thing that I'll say is that in anything that we do, always about quality, always about quality. So great quality and great value, right? So we're not trying to engineer a price chain that tries to be something that it's not. It's great quality, great value when you can pick up a Coopers beer, whether it's a zero or Sparkling Ale that's 164 years old, you know what you're getting from that respect. A beautiful beer brewed with expertise, science, passion, love, all of these things, regardless of what you're picking up, if it's got Coopers on it, it has that Yes, of course, lots of consumer trends are changing. So I think let's take that continued gradual slide down the ABV ladder over time. So that's not necessarily a new It's an accelerating trend and one that gets a lot of attention, but it's not necessarily new. I mean, Sparkling Ale for us is 5.8%, and that used to be our number one. And then a long time ago, original pale ale, it was actually brought out under a different name, I believe it was light dinner ale prior to that, was sort of like a bit of a baby brother to sparkling. And when people were moving to original pale ale 4.5, that was sort of probably because Sparkling Ale was maybe a bit big, bit heavy, providing that of products and investing in those products that are catching people as they move down the ABV ladder is really important. We've had, at one point, I believe we've been doing non-alc beer, probably before non-alc beer was really exciting to talk about. We have a beer still and had one called It was called Birell, and we now just, we call it Coopers Ultra Light. So that beer has been on supermarket shelves for decades before non-alc beer got talked about a lot more. Still exists today, but we've brought out another beer called Coopers Zero, which again, beautiful tasting zero. I had two on the weekend, so I was at the footy, went there with my little son, I drove. So it was a zero, then a mid strength, then I snuck in a Dark Ale and then back to Zero while eating over several hours. So I was perfect to finish the game and drive home. So yeah, that's just one example of how we will take note of consumer trends. But I always believe it's very important. to try and distinguish between where are consumers headed that is just a bit of a fashionable change in the breeze. So sometimes that can be like a flavor profile where you go, this is the flavor profile of the summer versus what is something that is really going to stay. for decades to come. And I believe that move towards, I call it healthier-for-you choices, moderation is one of those things that will stay, but we're continuing to position ourselves for that. So, I mean, although saying that I was at the pub with a mate on Saturday night, a local, the Kensi, short walk for the both of us, and we wandered in and we thought we were going to have a quiet night with, you know, we had a Dark Ale and we had a little stout and a few things. We thought we were going to have a quiet chat, but one of the local school football clubs was in there and the young lads and the ladies had a buy, so the footy team that had a buy and it was the ladies day as well. Yeah, I don't know how to say it. I mean, we always encourage responsible drinking, but that evening sort of... Got a bit out of control, didn't it? The people going out, putting their phones in their pocket and having a few beers and having fun together. It was nice to see. And then we decided we are too old to be here. We better go.
James Stewart
Look, you just touched on something else I want to talk about briefly. And there has been an explosion of microbreweries around Australia. And a lot of those breweries aren't making any money. Quite a few of them have gone broke. I think the number I have in my head is something like 600 or 700 microbreweries. And I think about the business models and the CapEx infrastructure for those breweries. And I think my reflections, and I'm asking you a question here as well, is that some of those breweries are trying to tap into a particular consumer trend. Some of them maybe have been challenged by the business model in the 1st place just because of the CapEx investment and getting product to market. And I think about how Coopers is responding. What's your reflections? on the impact of microbreweries on market conditions and to the consumer.
Andrew Cooper
Yeah, firstly, I think there's a lot of wonderful independent and family smaller brewers in Australia that brew some wonderful beer. I'm a beer lover and enthusiast. would drive past the local bottle shop on the way home and sort of ask the fella there, what's selling? And he'd go this, this, this, this, and this, and I'd have a bit of a grab a can of each and have a bit of a taste and some wonderful brewers out there. Yeah, I mean, it's a challenging time for a lot of them at the moment. There was quite a steep rise of brewers joining the industry. I think that's, as you said, there's a consolidation occurring at the moment. And yes, I think some of them may have found it challenging. Some have done wonderful, built single SKU monsters and been acquired by one of the two significant Japanese owned breweries who are our primary competitors. So some have sort of acquired and kudos to them. Some of them have built wonderful businesses over a short period of time. I think that acquisition. time is past now. So for an aspiring brewer, they really need to think deeply about what I want to do with this. Do I want to continue to push with the business and drive the business? And some of them would be thinking, do I want to become a second generation family business and may have often started as a first. Yeah, it's a time of consolidation, unfortunately, for independent brewers in Australia. But yeah, and I think a lot of that initial CapEx requirement will be one of the main reasons, brewing equipment is not getting any cheaper. So I have had some really wonderful discussions with independent brewers and some of them have asked, how has Coopers done it? And I did say, well, there's this is a point in time in the industry at the moment, but we've had 164 years of different points in time and struggle and striving to continue to get to where we are today. So it's not like we've... we've popped up overnight. We've been fortunate to have the benefit of time and effort just in over 6 generations to get where we are. So it's a different context. But yeah, it's, I think one thing that. the craft beer industry has done, which has been wonderful in particular, is it's opened people's minds and taste buds to more interesting and challenging beer styles, sort of expanded their beer portfolio, so to speak. So particularly in the world of ales, so to move into pale ales and all these wonderful styles, IPAs and darks and porters and stouts and hazies and all these things sort of has made me, it's wonderful and keeps me really interesting.
James Stewart
So how has technology and maybe, and this is a quick open question, AI impacting the brewing business?
Andrew Cooper
Yeah, AI is, I'm not going to say it's an area of expertise of mine. I'll be lying if I did, but it's something that I think almost all businesses in the world are.
James Stewart
Thinking about.
Andrew Cooper
Thinking about wondering how they might integrate it, wondering and considering how it will enhance their business. Also conscious of what they may lose in approaching it or adopting it too fast or what mistakes may be made. Some would be charging headfirst and failing forward and all these things behind it. We Firstly, we wanted to make sure that we have robust policies around the use of it. So we've had several discussions at board level around that and the executive leadership team level around how we might adopt it so that it does just sort of permeate the business and run wild among people because everybody can get access to AI quite easily now through their various devices at home, of course. So, procedures and policies around how our IT team in particular has been testing a number of AI platforms to see which one may work best for us. Where personally I could see it being extraordinarily useful is in the brewing side of things. We've always invested heavily into the best equipment, the best brewing equipment. You come to Coopers Brewery and you might expect a bit of a... a cottage industry brewery. It's quite a large brewery. As I said, sort of 80 million litres plus a beer goes through here and it's incredibly clean and quite high tech. So a lot of our equipment from the likes of KHS in Germany and things. So continue to leverage AI and invest in AI from a production efficiency and capability perspective to always in service of high quality beer could be an area that we really lean into it. And then trying to gain efficiency gains around the business. I'm looking at my emails going, God, I need a Claude or something to organize this better than I currently am. So if our business can get efficiency gains out of that and we can communicate quicker with each other. I'm still a bit of a traditionalist in that I think if I get up off my chair and look into someone's office, we'll cover something a hell of a lot quicker in a two minute conversation than emails back and forth with AI crawling all over it. And we wouldn't risk miscommunication. But yeah, I think early days We're not completely blind to it. I wouldn't say we're a mature business in this space, but we're looking at how it could be adopted primarily from a production perspective and just building efficiencies through the business.
James Stewart
There's a couple of things I'd like to touch on before we wrap. The first of all is Coopers is investing in whisky and talk to us about that and then talk to us briefly about the... the Coopers Restaurant and Taproom in Regency Park, and so can you start with the whisky, please?
Andrew Cooper
Yes, as one of the people sort of go, why? And tell me about that. The two questions is sort of why and what would it be called? might not answer the second one too clearly. The first question, sort of like, why whisky? Our businesses, we're always thinking about long-term, sustainable, profitable growth. We're thinking towards 200 years of independent family brewing and operation. So whisky is a category in Australia that over the long-term trend is in growth. And I mean, a 40-year long-term trend. Single malt whisky in higher growth, Australian single malt whisky is really in its infancy. There's several operators that have actually been around 25 odd years, which you might not think, but the industry relative to the rest of the world is young. But it's a beer-adjacent category that is growing. We've obviously got that vertical integration with the malting that we talked about before. We're experts in brewing, and the first part of a whisky is effectively a brew. So a whisky before it goes into the distillation process in the barrels is really an unhopped beer. We have expertise in that area. We know that the Coopers Ale yeast actually can give wonderful characters, delicate, fruity, and floral aromas to a whisky. So we have these things in place. So from an ingredients and input perspective, we believe that we've got a bit to bring to the category there. Our story, whilst a story about brewing. It's also a story about time and patience and perseverance and all these things that whisky is a process to be patient. So yeah, we would like to contribute to the Australian whisky category and both domestically and hopefully in decades to come internationally as well. But Australian whisky's sort of got to come online, but there's some wonderful leaders in that space as well with the likes of Lark and Archie Rose and the Starward and things that have began paving a path. So for us to join and contribute to that, we think we'll be able to assist with bringing Australian whisky scale to the Australian whisky industry, but always again with that position of quality.
James Stewart
Well, I must say, I look forward to tasting the whisky when it comes out. My son is a bit of a whisky guy and he's got me onto some marvellous whiskies, including an incredible one from Kangaroo Island, by the way, which is something else. So last year, I think it was last year, the business opened up effectively a flagship restaurant in Adelaide. Just talk to us about that.
Andrew Cooper
Yeah, well, that's, I mean, if you have an interest in whisky, you come over to our new beautiful visitor centre and you said there's two wonderful copper pot stills, stunning, which is part of the microbrewery there as well. So yeah, we opened the doors to I'll say a hospitality experience. So the total investment, including a warehouse extension and the distillery and microbrewery operations was about $80 million capital investment, so a pretty significant investment. With that in place now, we actually think that the site here at Coopers Brewery may be globally unique because we can't think of another that has got a visitor centre, commercial brewery, whisky distillery, microbrewery, and then the malting works all in one place. So a globally unique site now, but the visitor centre is a wonderful place with, of course, as you said, the restaurant there. So open Tuesdays and Saturdays to the general public. A lot of people coming in and booking tours, so doing the tour of Coopers Brewery, and then finishing with a tasting paddle or just a pint and a meal and you'll regularly bump into a Cooper there, myself. and Tim and Mel and Louise and Ian and, you know, we're often, and Tory, we're walking through there regularly. So I was having lunch the other day and one of the staff tapped me on the shoulder and said, look, the gentleman behind you, he's a super fan of Coopers beer. So to be able to just pop around and say g'day, introduce myself and shout him a beer. is a wonderful thing. I got to make his day after he'd seen the whole brewery tour and everything. And so he had a pint and he walked out with a hat and all sorts of things. So it's about being able to flung the gates open now and welcome everybody that has. a love for beer and love for our beer and love for Australian beer stories, which is great. And the food is excellent. Our head chef in there, Fabio, good looking Brazilian fella, just does a wonderful job among the whole team there. So yeah, you'd be very welcome. And one day later, you will be able to taste some whisky there, but not yet. We've got to be a bit more patient.
James Stewart
It's on my holiday bucket list. I'm coming to South Australia. I'll do it anyway, but I'm coming over there just to taste the beer and the whisky. Hey Andrew, this has been a great conversation and I've really enjoyed it. I've learned a lot. I've learned a lot about brewing that I feel like I didn't know and it's got the taste buds a bit wetter to be perfectly honest with you. I'd like to ask you one question before we wrap and that is if in your journey both inside the business and before you joined the business, if you were to give your younger self one piece of advice, what would that be?
Andrew Cooper
It's a good question. One piece of advice is tough, isn't it? I would probably say to myself, jump into the arena, not just in family business, but in business and life in general. I think that approach and having that attitude to business and life to, it's the old Teddy Roosevelt thing, the man in the arena, right? So it's not the critic that counts. It's the person in the arena having a go, basically. So never be afraid to jump into the arena. Never be afraid to step into the room. Everybody in that room, even if they're more experienced in years and age, their ideas are not necessarily any more valuable than your own, right? And that's in all business rooms you go into. So jump into the arena, back yourself. That's one thing. Also, you don't have to go, don't embark upon the hero's journey alone. Culture and team are everything. Everybody's got a story, so be curious about that. Ask people about their story and their ideas, because you don't have to have all of the ideas, all of the answers yourself. We often say, our general manager of beer sales and I, we're often saying that we've got all the answers. but not as individuals, as a team. So be in the arena, but don't do it alone. Yeah, and also enjoy the journey. When you're young, sometimes you get a bit of a tight grip as you're trying to progress and you're hungry, but I think you actually get the best out of yourself and your team and the people around you when you're a little bit more loose and relaxed and you are still committing yourself to the business. every day with the right positive attitude, but you're not trying to grip it and do it all yourself. You're really trying to bring everybody along on the journey with you.
James Stewart
Just like great golf, by the way, Andrew, it's often grip pressure that it does you in. And the softer the grip, the better you'll play.
Andrew Cooper
Yeah, well, I'm not a wonderful golfer. I've got two young boys under nine, so I don't get out. If I said to my wife, I'm disappearing for four or five hours on Saturday morning, I think I'd be in a bit of strife. But I'll take that advice on notice for the next time I get out there.
James Stewart
Oh, good. Well, thank you, Andrew. It's been a terrific conversation. We have talked about the history of the Coopers family business, which is quite frankly incredible. We've talked about the beer business. We've talked about the customer changes that are happening and how that's impacting the beer business. We've had a really interesting conversation and I am so looking forward to getting back over to South Australia to not only see the Coopers Brewery, but have a Coopers beer and I'll get one of those restorative ales for my wife today.
Andrew Cooper
Yes, yeah, no, thank you James, it's been a lot of fun, you'd be very welcome, and yeah, when you do come down, the beer is on me, love to shout, and enjoy one together.
James Stewart
Alright, thank you, thank you Andrew Cooper.
Andrew Cooper
Thanks James, cheers mate.
James Stewart
My sincere thanks to Andrew Cooper for sharing the story behind Coopers Brewery and what it takes to help lead one of Australia's great family businesses into its sixth generation. And thank you again to the Family Business Association for sponsoring this episode. Until next time, keep learning, keep building, and remember, sometimes what you learn in business doesn't kill you. It actually makes you better.
